I don't think Checkers will ever change his behavior, and something does need to be done. In all honesty, he has made NC so much less enjoyable for me. These days, even the little things irritate me, like his constantly changing avatar (I know it's not against the rules and other members have coded loops, but at least those are consistent), and like Topher said, his spelling and grammar do kind of make him seem obnoxious.
He really doesn't seem capable of understanding that he needs to abide by certain rules. The mods are so good to have put up with him, and I think it would be perfectly fair of them to have had enough by this stage. I know I have...
a second protest against checkers' behaviour
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TCD
- Posts: 381
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- Location: Hogwarts--Slytherin Common Room
Well...I'll be honest, despite more lurking than posting here. (Not anything having to do with the subject of the thread.)
I stopped reading Checkers posts a long time ago, because they're just plain hard to understand. I've seen more than a few occasions where he's been outright rude, and quite frankly it's just...I don't know. It would have long been not-tolerated on the JACK forums, or most of the other forums I'm on. The banhammer would have been dropped.
I know the banstick is not weilded lightly here. But if the mods, and the community, are at the end of their collected rope with no sign of an end.....well...it's something certainly to consider.
EDIT: Also, I'm so guilty of the avatar thing. So. Very. Guilty. And my username changed at one point, too.
I stopped reading Checkers posts a long time ago, because they're just plain hard to understand. I've seen more than a few occasions where he's been outright rude, and quite frankly it's just...I don't know. It would have long been not-tolerated on the JACK forums, or most of the other forums I'm on. The banhammer would have been dropped.
I know the banstick is not weilded lightly here. But if the mods, and the community, are at the end of their collected rope with no sign of an end.....well...it's something certainly to consider.
EDIT: Also, I'm so guilty of the avatar thing. So. Very. Guilty. And my username changed at one point, too.
Last edited by TCD on 25 Jun 2007 03:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
If it was solely up to me, I would have banned him after his first couple weeks here and the multiple account fiasco. My opinion hasn't changed.
I'm fairly certain I've only spoken with Checkers via pm in response to a pm he sent first. He's asked to adopt my pets, knowing full well that I dislike him to say the least. The first time he did this I told him I would never give him any of my pets and not to pm me about anything other than something relating to my duties as a mod. Then he asked again. And again. Everything else has been posted publicly. Aside from preventing him from spoiling the fun in the April Fool's Day joke thread, I haven't taken any sort of moderator action against him.
I'm fairly certain I've only spoken with Checkers via pm in response to a pm he sent first. He's asked to adopt my pets, knowing full well that I dislike him to say the least. The first time he did this I told him I would never give him any of my pets and not to pm me about anything other than something relating to my duties as a mod. Then he asked again. And again. Everything else has been posted publicly. Aside from preventing him from spoiling the fun in the April Fool's Day joke thread, I haven't taken any sort of moderator action against him.
I'll be the first to admit: I lurk WAY more than I ever post here. Old habits dying hard and such and such. I am, however, going to post my two cents on this issue here, so take it or leave it for what it's worth.
Besides lurking on NC and all my other internet rounds, I moderate at a forum that is significantly larger than this one, with a different focus. As it is such a larger population there, we as a staff team have little tolerance for antics such as the ones Checkers displays. If ONE member brings forth a complaint about another, whether through PM, a chat IM, or what have you, it is immediately brought up for discussion with the rest of the staff. Usually, what ends up happening is that a mod will then PM the offender letting them know what they did wrong and that the staff team will be taking note of this behaviour. In theory, it's something like three strikes and you're out, although we're usually not THAT harsh. At any rate, would Checkers' behavour here have merited him a strike nearly anywhere else? Absolutely. Would it have gotten him banned? Maybe not so, but his account almost certainly would have been placed on suspension.
I have nothing but the utmost respect for the mods here; quite frankly if I were in their shoes I would have wanted to squash this little headache quite some time ago. Do I think something needs to be done? Yes. Do I really think that Checkers' snide inputs into basically everything he posts would be horribly missed if gone? No. Do I think that an absence would encourage other members to perhaps come out of lurk mode and actually post? Yes.
Besides lurking on NC and all my other internet rounds, I moderate at a forum that is significantly larger than this one, with a different focus. As it is such a larger population there, we as a staff team have little tolerance for antics such as the ones Checkers displays. If ONE member brings forth a complaint about another, whether through PM, a chat IM, or what have you, it is immediately brought up for discussion with the rest of the staff. Usually, what ends up happening is that a mod will then PM the offender letting them know what they did wrong and that the staff team will be taking note of this behaviour. In theory, it's something like three strikes and you're out, although we're usually not THAT harsh. At any rate, would Checkers' behavour here have merited him a strike nearly anywhere else? Absolutely. Would it have gotten him banned? Maybe not so, but his account almost certainly would have been placed on suspension.
I have nothing but the utmost respect for the mods here; quite frankly if I were in their shoes I would have wanted to squash this little headache quite some time ago. Do I think something needs to be done? Yes. Do I really think that Checkers' snide inputs into basically everything he posts would be horribly missed if gone? No. Do I think that an absence would encourage other members to perhaps come out of lurk mode and actually post? Yes.
Subeta
I apologise if my post seems flamey. Please believe that I don't intend it to be. I'm just awful at expressing my opinion.
My opinions haven't changed at all since the last time this issue was brought up. And I don't think checkers' behavior has improved, rather, it has worsened.
I believe the mods are absolutely amazing for putting up with checkers' behavior for so long. Like a few others have stated, I'd have banned him long ago, then again, I have very little patience and I know that's not how things work here.
Just about everything others have said, I agree with. checkers' retaliation towards our mods, his backseat modding(while I understand he's trying to be helpful, he's been warned numerous times about it), his rudeness towards members and non-members alike, and the grammar-butchery of his posts...
I could look away when it comes to grammar if English wasn't his first language, or if he were say... less then 10 years old. But I'm pretty sure neither of those apply to him, so there's little to no excuse for it. If they do, my apologies. It doesn't take long to read over your posts. And even if you post without reading them over beforehand, there's always the Edit button to improve your post later.
I have seen him apologise for his actions, though only a few times. And the majority of those apologies seemed sarcastic, however, it's difficult to judge sarcasm over the internet and when the poster's grammar isn't up to par. I'd like to think he was sincere, but it's difficult.
checkers, I think that if you just thought before you posted, we wouldn't be in this situation. If you put some effort into your posts and start to abide by the rules, action wont have to be taken and perhaps you'll turn around and become a respected member. It's obviously possible, as there are members here who have done as such.
However, I believe you've been given plently of time to change. I'm not sure what we can do, now. Perhaps a time out/temp. ban... maybe? I honestly don't know what we should do.
I apologise for the long post.
For the record: Adi, I think you fit in just fine, even if you don't think you do. I hold just as much respect for your posts as every other active member here. :)
My opinions haven't changed at all since the last time this issue was brought up. And I don't think checkers' behavior has improved, rather, it has worsened.
I believe the mods are absolutely amazing for putting up with checkers' behavior for so long. Like a few others have stated, I'd have banned him long ago, then again, I have very little patience and I know that's not how things work here.
Just about everything others have said, I agree with. checkers' retaliation towards our mods, his backseat modding(while I understand he's trying to be helpful, he's been warned numerous times about it), his rudeness towards members and non-members alike, and the grammar-butchery of his posts...
I could look away when it comes to grammar if English wasn't his first language, or if he were say... less then 10 years old. But I'm pretty sure neither of those apply to him, so there's little to no excuse for it. If they do, my apologies. It doesn't take long to read over your posts. And even if you post without reading them over beforehand, there's always the Edit button to improve your post later.
I have seen him apologise for his actions, though only a few times. And the majority of those apologies seemed sarcastic, however, it's difficult to judge sarcasm over the internet and when the poster's grammar isn't up to par. I'd like to think he was sincere, but it's difficult.
checkers, I think that if you just thought before you posted, we wouldn't be in this situation. If you put some effort into your posts and start to abide by the rules, action wont have to be taken and perhaps you'll turn around and become a respected member. It's obviously possible, as there are members here who have done as such.
However, I believe you've been given plently of time to change. I'm not sure what we can do, now. Perhaps a time out/temp. ban... maybe? I honestly don't know what we should do.
I apologise for the long post.
For the record: Adi, I think you fit in just fine, even if you don't think you do. I hold just as much respect for your posts as every other active member here. :)
Last edited by Slugawoo on 25 Jun 2007 04:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Wingsrising
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bonecrivain
- Incorrigible Bookworm
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Here's a question: Does anyone not support a ban of checkers? And if not, what are your reasons?
I should probably clarify my stance, since my last post was rather wordy. I am fully in favor of a ban. I would hesitate to take such a drastic action, but as I said before, I do not believe he will change. Because of this, I do not see any point in a temporary ban, a suspension, or anything along those lines. He hasn't listened to us at any point in the past, and I don't see him beginning now.
I should probably clarify my stance, since my last post was rather wordy. I am fully in favor of a ban. I would hesitate to take such a drastic action, but as I said before, I do not believe he will change. Because of this, I do not see any point in a temporary ban, a suspension, or anything along those lines. He hasn't listened to us at any point in the past, and I don't see him beginning now.
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Cranberry
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I just wanted to say that in that first thread linked, I probably did provoke checkers -- I argued with him when he said Ishtar's shopkeeper didn't fit Subeautique (a comment I found unnecessary, because Ishtar had already explained the reasoning behind making the shopkeeper young). I'm sorry about that -- I'm just so sick of reading his (usually rude) opinions everywhere that I jumped on something small. Anyway, needless to say, his posts bother me, especially when he's backseat modding/arguing with mods, and I think he's had more than enough chances to improve. At all three forums I've worked for, he would have been gone long ago.
Also:
Also:
There is no way that's a sincere apology. That might as well say, "Heh, sorry I got involved and got you your job back. You should be grateful."Heh, sorry I couldn't bare not seeing your art on the site and asked Chimaera and Kelpie about this situation. So you're not fired after all, you can go back if you wish. REALLY really sorry for getting involved.
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AngharadTy
- Zombie Queen
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eh...Ok he's my two cents.
Quite a few times here I've seen checkers post things, and then people retaliating, and sometimes I feel the retaliations are a bit over board. Checkers posted an opinion in the first mentioned thread in the OP, it was not well received, but I do not think he meant it to slight anyone obviously. Cranberry challenged him, and he posted what he believed was antique and old and she called him out, said hes opinions are wrong then told him to stop arguing :/
Fair enough checkers often doesn't read, is rude, yes. But sometimes I feel that because of this, people overreact in threads where checkers hasn't really done much wrong.
I wanted to say this at the time, really ought to have but instead held my tongue:
viewtopic.php?t=6821
Yes checkers backseat modded, yes a mod told him to shut it. Doesn't change the fact he wasn't right (or that I agree with Checkers here at any rate) because in fact, the alternate match I put there came from the petpet forum.
If the bored was in the wrong forum, has it not been moved because checkers was the one who pointed it out, or because he didn't neomail a mod privatively to ask if it was out of place? Maybe it was unconscious "No Checkers you're wrong" reaction, or just as possibly both me and checkers are wrong, if so I'd love someone to explain the difference to the both of us between a petpet match on the petpet forum and one on the aesthetics forums. Did the flankin make that much difference?
So what I'm saying is yes Checkers has much to fix, but it isn't going to help with us as a community trying to run him into the ground at the same time, consciously or not.
And Checkers, I am not on your side, I'm not standing up for you, nor am I calling out on Kamil here. That was just an example of an observation, the fact people feel they need to make not one but two boards highlighting issues with you and your behaviour should be an eye opener.
And here's a a word from me to you, don't say sorry. It is the most meaningless word in existance as far as I can see, and especially do not say it when you do not feel regret. Actions speak far louder than words, instead of feeling sorry act like you are.
The reason I have picked (or believe I have) up on my observations is because not many people believe you do regret what is going on.
Quite a few times here I've seen checkers post things, and then people retaliating, and sometimes I feel the retaliations are a bit over board. Checkers posted an opinion in the first mentioned thread in the OP, it was not well received, but I do not think he meant it to slight anyone obviously. Cranberry challenged him, and he posted what he believed was antique and old and she called him out, said hes opinions are wrong then told him to stop arguing :/
Fair enough checkers often doesn't read, is rude, yes. But sometimes I feel that because of this, people overreact in threads where checkers hasn't really done much wrong.
I wanted to say this at the time, really ought to have but instead held my tongue:
viewtopic.php?t=6821
Yes checkers backseat modded, yes a mod told him to shut it. Doesn't change the fact he wasn't right (or that I agree with Checkers here at any rate) because in fact, the alternate match I put there came from the petpet forum.
If the bored was in the wrong forum, has it not been moved because checkers was the one who pointed it out, or because he didn't neomail a mod privatively to ask if it was out of place? Maybe it was unconscious "No Checkers you're wrong" reaction, or just as possibly both me and checkers are wrong, if so I'd love someone to explain the difference to the both of us between a petpet match on the petpet forum and one on the aesthetics forums. Did the flankin make that much difference?
So what I'm saying is yes Checkers has much to fix, but it isn't going to help with us as a community trying to run him into the ground at the same time, consciously or not.
And Checkers, I am not on your side, I'm not standing up for you, nor am I calling out on Kamil here. That was just an example of an observation, the fact people feel they need to make not one but two boards highlighting issues with you and your behaviour should be an eye opener.
And here's a a word from me to you, don't say sorry. It is the most meaningless word in existance as far as I can see, and especially do not say it when you do not feel regret. Actions speak far louder than words, instead of feeling sorry act like you are.
The reason I have picked (or believe I have) up on my observations is because not many people believe you do regret what is going on.
*tosses $.02 into pile*
Usually with people that act like checkers (backseat modding, confronting others, etc.), I'll ignore the posts. But that's hard when it's happening on every section of the forum I frequent. I know I'm not the most active poster, but that's my personality. Besides, I like lurking.
Anyway, what really got me about checkers was the continuous rule breaching, and the insincerity of the apologies. That post in the NyauNyau art thread actually made me say "Wow, that was uncalled for and stupid" out loud.
But...still in general, I ignore him. It'd be nice if he stopped, or left/was banned. But I'm neither voting for/supporting a ban, nor am I against one.
Usually with people that act like checkers (backseat modding, confronting others, etc.), I'll ignore the posts. But that's hard when it's happening on every section of the forum I frequent. I know I'm not the most active poster, but that's my personality. Besides, I like lurking.
Anyway, what really got me about checkers was the continuous rule breaching, and the insincerity of the apologies. That post in the NyauNyau art thread actually made me say "Wow, that was uncalled for and stupid" out loud.
But...still in general, I ignore him. It'd be nice if he stopped, or left/was banned. But I'm neither voting for/supporting a ban, nor am I against one.
derp
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Cranberry
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People who are defending checkers: Please stop focusing on the "argument" I had with him, which was probably the least annoying confrontation he's been involved in lately and which I said on the actual thread wasn't even worth arguing about -- we both dropped it pretty quickly. I also admitted here that I started that one, so that case is closed, in my opinion. I feel like people are focusing on that too much and ignoring all the other extremely valid complaints about his behavior. When I saw checkers post some random person's art in Elzaim's thread, I cringed. That's just not done. And every time I see him talking back to a mod, or posting tons of pictures in a thread, or backseat modding, or doing any of the other things he's been warned about multiple times (and we've only seen the many public reprimands; apparently he's been warned many more times privately), I just get more and more annoyed.
checkers, if you think most people hate you, why do you even stay here? I mean, I know some people here aren't too fond of me, and I can deal with that, but if there was a thread like this about me -- and if I didn't like all the people who were complaining about me in the first place -- I'd be gone.
checkers, if you think most people hate you, why do you even stay here? I mean, I know some people here aren't too fond of me, and I can deal with that, but if there was a thread like this about me -- and if I didn't like all the people who were complaining about me in the first place -- I'd be gone.
Cranberry, I didn't mean to seem like I was focusing on that argument at all, and I hadn't even seen your post before I'd posted mine, I was typing my reply for quite a while trying to get my mish-mosh of thoughts together somewhat legibly.
I used it as an example because it was the one referred to nothing more. And I'm also aware that in my post I may have seem like your apology was insincere which I don't mean, I have no doubt you are.
I'm not ignoring the rudeness and all that Checkers is doing, no doubt he is doing, but trying to point out that if people's knee jerk reaction is to ignore/put checkers down even when he may have something valid to say (even when he has something valid to say but did not say it very tactfully?) then why would he want to improve?
"If your going to treat me like this why should I try to be nice to you all"
Which you actually summed up in that last question to Checkers in your own way I guess.
I used it as an example because it was the one referred to nothing more. And I'm also aware that in my post I may have seem like your apology was insincere which I don't mean, I have no doubt you are.
I'm not ignoring the rudeness and all that Checkers is doing, no doubt he is doing, but trying to point out that if people's knee jerk reaction is to ignore/put checkers down even when he may have something valid to say (even when he has something valid to say but did not say it very tactfully?) then why would he want to improve?
"If your going to treat me like this why should I try to be nice to you all"
Which you actually summed up in that last question to Checkers in your own way I guess.
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Strawberry Limeade
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I didn't realize it'd been 3 months since the last time we had this discussion. That's an awfully long time with no improvement. I'll be completely honest - every time I see a post by checkers, my jaw clenches. Everybody's already mentioned the things that irritate me, so I won't reitirate them. I will say that the blatant disrespect towards the mods and admins that Figment brought up really, really bothers me. They were elected by all of us for their maturity and level-headedness. I think I'd be safe in saying that they do it because they enjoy this community and want to keep it enjoyable for the majority. I don't think it's fair to them to have to continually babysit a member who refuses to exercise even a modicum of self-control.
As has been said many times before, age is no excuse for this type of behavior. I've been on NC for a fairly long time now, but not nearly as long as some. I wasn't around when Garrett first started posting and was banned. Until I got bored one day and started reading through really old threads (two board moves back maybe?), I had no idea he had been a problem at all. It can happen, but it took some drastic measures before Garrett realized the changes he needed to make. Maybe that's what needs to happen here.
As has been said many times before, age is no excuse for this type of behavior. I've been on NC for a fairly long time now, but not nearly as long as some. I wasn't around when Garrett first started posting and was banned. Until I got bored one day and started reading through really old threads (two board moves back maybe?), I had no idea he had been a problem at all. It can happen, but it took some drastic measures before Garrett realized the changes he needed to make. Maybe that's what needs to happen here.
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