The Return of Dr. Sloth (Plot)

[Huggles]

Works now, and I'm not going to bother. I don't understand it and I don't feel like wasting the time to do so.

[Cranberry]

I don't understand it, either. Can someone explain this (or link to a page that does)?

Man, I just want to beat things up in the battledome.

[Nogitsune]

I don't understand it, either. Can someone explain this (or link to a page that does)?

Man, I just want to beat things up in the battledome.

I suspect, but I'm not sure, that the codes are somewhat math based. I'd need more input from others on this.

[Gumdrops]

Gods, I thought the water puzzle from the Altador plot was a pain in the ass. I'd welcome it at this point.

This is like, Anubis Toxicology Reports tedious.

[Officer 1BDI]

What the hell am I supposed to be doing with this? O_o The results of specific pairs of modifiers seem to change every time I remove one and replace it (as in I use modifiers 1 and 5, I remove 5, put 5 back, and suddenly get different results).

[Cranberry]

Well, there's a neoboard thread that people seem to find useful, but it may as well be in Russian, because I don't understand it. I'll copy it here just in case someone else does.

I've found it. In a 1-mod code, you get a four-symbol key, right? These are four independent numbers.

"C" = 0
"V" = 1
"X" = 2

When you add a modifier, they do NOT add like a normal four-digit number. Each digit adds vertically. So you could go:

Key: CCVV or 0011
Plus modifier: CCVV or 0011
Equals: CCXX or 0022

Go above 2, and it cycles to the bottom.

Key: VVXX or 1122
Plus modifier: VVXX or 1122
. . . SHOULD equal 2244. But 4 doesn't exist, so it cycles back down to zero, and you get . . .
XXCC or 2200

And no, this isn't just a coincidence. For the other levels, they RENUMBER the symbols. In a 3-mod code:

"C" = 1
"V" = 2
"X" = 3
"Division symbol" = 4
"Paintbrush" = 5
"Vo codestone" = 6

So if we just looked at one symbol at a time in a 3-mod code, you could go:

Key: X or 3
Plus modifier 1: X or 3
Plus modifier 2: X or 3
Plus modifier 3: X or 3

. . . SHOULD equal twelve. But twelve doesn't exist, so it cycles back down to zero, and you get . . .

"Vo codestone" or 6

Ta da!

To repeat:

1-mod:

0 = "C"
1 = "V"
2 = "X"

2-mod

Skipped! Sorry!

3-mod

1 = "C"
2 = "V"
3 = "X"
4 = "Division symbol" or "Z"
5 = "Paintbrush" or "Mushroom"
6 = "Vo codestone" or "Eight"

Whee!

And

Ah, the "twelve" thing. If it moves up by a total of twelve positions . . . well, there aren't twelve positions! It goes up to 6, then pops down to the bottom and keeps counting. I made an error: in THIS example, it doesn't go to zero, but goes to 1. Note there is no zero in 3-mod.

So, moving twelve positions . . . 1,2,3,4,5,6, then 1,2,3,4,5,6 and it's done! See?

--Plasto

[oogabooga]

I don't get it, either, Cranberry, though I just skimmed it so I might try again. Edit: Oh, now I think I do. Confusingly, it has to do with modular arithmetic, which is also abbreviated "mod" - basically, think of a clock as being mod 24. If you add 25 hours, you end up 1 hour ahead of where you were, because 25 is 1 mod 24. It's just the remainder after dividing. Edit again: Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I disagree with their numbering of the level 3 symbols - there has to be a zero or it makes no sense mathematically.

Anyway, I have found that on the ones where it says "INCOMPLETE DATA", they do change every time, even with the exact same modifiers - this suggests we're not meant to do those yet. The others are consistent and can be solved through trial and error, or smart guessing (granted, I haven't solved any 3-mod ones yet).

[Cranberry]

Yeah, if it says "INCOMPLETE DATA," you can't solve it. I believe you have to do them in order -- all of the one-mods, then the two-mods, and then the three-mods. I finished all of my ones and twos by trial and error, but I need to figure out how this actual method works to do the three-mod ones (and there are 10 of those, ick).

[Officer 1BDI]

That post helped a lot. Thanks for sharing it, Cranberry.

[oogabooga]

Heh. Even if I understand the math, I'm not sure how to use it to solve this without a lot of guessing.

[Wingsrising]

Well, there's a neoboard thread that people seem to find useful, but it may as well be in Russian, because I don't understand it. I'll copy it here just in case someone else does.

I think what they're saying is that this works like a modular number system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_arithmetic

Think like a clock: it only counts up to 12, then starts over. So, for example, in a clock system 9+5 equal 2: start at 9pm, add 5 hours, and you end up at 2am because after 12 you start over at 1 again.

So the system with only one modifier (the only one I've tried yet) works like this:

V=1
X=2
C=3 (or 0, however you prefer to think of it -- they're the same in this sort of system).

So X+X = 2+2 = 4, but because you start over again with 1 after you hit 3, 4=1.

Another way to think of these sort of groups: The system I've described above is a mod 3 group. You can find the vale of any number mod 3 by dividing that number by 3. The remainder is the value of the number mod 3.

So:

1 mod 3 = 1
2 mod 3 = 2
3 mod 3 = 0 (because the remainder when you divide 3 by 3 is 0)
4 mod 3 = 1 (4 divided by 3 leaves a remainder of 1)

So you can do this for any number. 257 mod 3, for example, is 2: 85*3 = 255, so 3 goes into 257 with a remainder of 2).

Does that make any more sense? I learned about these things in a 300-level algebra class in college, so it's something you don't get until a rather advanced level in the US... and it also means I learned it longer ago than I care to think about, and so don't remember it very well.

EDIT: I haven't tried the 3-level thingy yet, but if I'm understanding what that post says correctly, it may help to think of it as a clock that only goes from 1:00 to 6:00 (and then starts over at 1:00). So if you add 6 hours to 6:00 under this sort of system -- you end up back at 6:00, just as you would end up back at 12:00 after adding 12 hours on a normal clock.

EDIT 2: oogabooga beat me to it. We even linked to the same Wikipedia article...

The Neoboards post is a bit confusing because it refers to "mod" to mean the number of modifiers you have to add, which is not what "mod" normally means in this context.

6 IS the 0 if the level-3 system is a mod 6 system.

Anyone know what the level 2 symbols correspond to so I don't have to work them out myself? :-0

[Cranberry]

It does make sense, sort of. I am really bad at math, though (okay, I shouldn't say that... I'll just say that it all depends on how it's explained to me. I got a C+ in 10th grade algebra and an A in 11th grade just because I had a much better teacher. Once someone manages to explain it in a way I can understand, I've got it down.)

Here's a neoboard thread on how to solve the three-mod problems in "three easy steps:"

It's a little complicated so pay attention!

Step 1: Write down all the symbols on a piece of paper, with their values side-by-side. Example:
C = 1/7
V = 2/8
X = 3/9
Z = 4/10
T = 5/11
8 = 6/12

Step 2: Find the DIFFERENCE between the key number and the target number.
Example:
KEY = Z8CTXVVX
TARGET = XCTXCC88
Difference between numbers:
Z-X = 5 OR 11
8-C = 7 OR 13
and so forth

Step 3: Write down the different ways to add up to the numbers in the DIFFERENCE using 3 numbers. Using the first example of Z-X = 5 OR 11, we have:
5 = 1 + 1 + 3 OR 1 + 2 + 2
11 = 6 + 4 + 1 OR 5 + 5 + 1

REMEMBER: you can only use numbers 1-6, AND you have to use THREE SEPARATE numbers, which means you will only get a small number of solutions (which is GOOD cuz it means less work for you)

Now you're ready to solve the puzzle. Remember Step 1 when you wrote down the numbers? Well, now you're going to know which symbols you need to look for, the ones that are the same as those in Step 3!

Example:
We'll start with 11 = 6 + 4 + 1
Because this is the 1st symbol, we know that the three symbols we need are 8, Z, and C. BUT, we don't have to try EVERY combination because we already know the POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS for the other symbols. So put an 8 in the first slot, a Z in the next slot, and a C in the third slot. The first symbol in RESULT and TARGET should match. But look at the second symbol. If it doesn't match, find out WHICH symbol it would need to be to match. In this example, the 2nd Target is C. If the Result is V, you know you need a symbol of 1-less.

BTW this is NOT for the INCOMPLETE DATA puzzles, just the ones with 6 symbols and 3 boxes.

and Z-X IS 11. it took me awhile to get that, too. But if you write the numbers down and then COUNT from Z to X (twice!) then it will be 11. Do that to get the DIFFERENCE instead of subtracting.

It goes: T-8-C-V-X-Z-T-8-C-V-X
Count up those #'s, it's 11.

Hope that helps somebody.

[Seerow]

Way to go Neo, making me feel all stupid. How is their largest demograph, the younger players, supposed to do this?

I managed to get all the one and two sections done purely on trial and error. Plug one in, go down the the list, rinse and repeat. I'm not doing that with the third set though, I won't spend hours mindless plugging bits of gibberesh into a code.

I don't think there should have been 10 of these hard ones. Maybe 5 one blank, 10 two blanks, and 5 three blanks would be a bit more fair? And less time consuming.

Edit:
Just saw Cranberry's post, and that actually makes a bit more sense and is something I could probably do.
But where are people finding what values the various symbols are? Are they the same for everyone?

[oogabooga]

But where are people finding what value the various symbols are? Are they the same for everyone?

Looks like it. That simplifies things a bit.

I agree, though - this is going to be impossible for kids.

[Wingsrising]

But where are people finding what value the various symbols are? Are they the same for everyone?

Looks like it. That simplifies things a bit.

I agree, though - this is going to be impossible for kids.

Does anyone know what the values for the level-2 problems are? They don't seem to be the same as the level-3 problems.