Chai and Dragon revamp (+ staff discussion)

[Jessi]

... For any Subetastaff who may lurk on the forum, how exactly is the item/pet design changing and evolving? I keep seeing excuses of "we're letting them go because their art isn't up to our standards," but what exactly ARE staff's standards?

I wonder the same thing myself, honestly. If the staff's standards are for everything to look exactly the same, then they're doing a great job. It used to be fun to look at a pet and go "Who drew that?" I used to harass hagane about who drew my favorite items, pets, colors, etc. I wouldn't CARE so much about Chimera drawing everything if it came out looking different.

But all the pet revamps she does have the exact same shading (that I personally feel is too overdone), the galactic pets she's done are too dark. All the pets are suddenly gaining six-packs and girth and looking like they work out at the gym ten times a day. The variety of pets on Subeta is slowly faltering from 50-something unique species to 50-something species that all look like 3 or 4.

And I agree with Ty. A non-artist can critique work just as effectively as an artist. But instead of people throwing a fit saying "Well we get it critiqued by staff before its released!!!11", maybe they should sit back and realize that's NOT what anyone is saying. All I've said is, it's taking away from one of the BIGGEST things that made Subeta unique - asking for its users' opinions and listening to them. Now that's gone, and it makes Subeta a lot less appealing.

[Phlizz]

Okay, I'm coming in very late to this (had modem issues of late), just read this 20-page thread all in one go... Some of what I want to say has been said already (but I'm gonna say it again because it bears repetition) along with perhaps a new thought or two.

Cue stupidly long post...

In a way, we did poll the dragon revamp via the galactic dragon. Likewise with the serpenth and paralix. I really don't think we will be using the poll system much anymore as users holding on to old outdated art hinders the site from moving forward and becoming better. Expect more revamps to be piloted in this way.

Yeah... and on the Galactic thread, a whole bunch of people scratched their heads and went, "We-eeelll... not that it's not nice in its own way, but I'd really prefer it if it, y'know, actually looked like a Subeta Dragon!?" - myself included, in two quite lengthy and detailed posts. Huge numbers of people objected to the changes in both the Dragon and the Paralix (only the Serpenth of the three really got far more enthusiastic praise than doubt and criticism), but it seems like the revamp was already complete behind the scenes so all the - quite legitimate - objections were brushed aside.

Polls could certainly bear some improvement (mainly more options than a simple "Yes/No", as has been said before), but I think they're still overall more efficient than criticisms via forums/comments for a number of reasons. Everyone can spare 10 seconds to look at the options in the poll and click one; not everyone has the time to write a thoughtful comment (and most people, quite sensibly, won't comment if all they can manage to say is "I like it"/"I don't like it"). Not everyone has the eloquence/artistic vocabulary/whatever, to be able to say why they like or dislike something (for example, I dislike the new Dragon for reasons I couldn't quite pinpoint when I first saw it; after reading through this thread I recognise the blobby shading as a main one. It only becomes glaringly obvious to my non-artistically-trained eye in the Chibi version). And there will always be people who are wary of expressing a really blunt or harsh opinion, whether it's because through fear of being chastised for "negativity" and subsequently dismissed, or a genuine reluctance to say something that might be hurtful to the artist; so the overall feedback from comments always risks being slanted by the sugar-coating many people will feel is necessary to put their point of view across in an 'acceptable' manner.

What makes it particularly absurd though, is that you're really not replacing the old poll system with a new commenting system - because that comment system was already there. When was there a poll that didn't have an accompanying news post with comments, and an accompanying thread in the forums for people who wanted to say something more in-depth and constructive than "Yes"/"No"? It's not an either/or - a poll and comment system is possible (and I always thought it's what was already in place).

...

Anyway, opinions on actual revamps revamps (since that's what this thread was originally meant to be about).

I dislike the new Dragon quite a bit, both as a redraw and in its own right. I rather liked the old one, considered owning one for a while - and yes, it was primarily the flatness of the art which put me off, so I acknowledge it needed a redraw and had high hopes. (Still have hopes that a new version I can like again might be put foward. And I second - or third, or fiftieth - the love for Goldenchaos' version). I find the redesigned Dragon quite simply boring. Stripped of its little distinctive features (boxy snout, winglessness, stiff springy antennae, and droopy whiskers were the main four I picked out in my original post at Subeta itself), it's just a generic cartoony Western dragon (with awkward pose and shading). Who knows, maybe that was the point; make the pet match the name, a quintessential, one-size-fits-all 'dragon', with nothing much to set it apart from any other draconic creature, including Subeta's own various other draconic pets. If so, it succeeded admirably, to the detriment of the species.

The Chai is a pet I've never liked, and I still don't really care for it - not down to anything wrong with the pet per se, but cute and fluffy just generally isn't my *ahem* cup of tea. As a redraw, though, it's awesome - essentially the same pet, keeping basically the same features and same spirit (even managing to keep pretty much the same pose!), just with a major art upgrade. Actually, the more I look at the new version, the more I think I could get to like it in time. I like the soft look of the fur, the slightly quizzical look that the eyes and the tilt to the (thankfully smaller) head give it. And for some reason, I especially like the shine on the Gold Chai...

[/stupidly long post]

[Quetzal]

Quetzal's is bringing interesting compromises there.

(And are you the Quetzal who was previously mentionned to be an ex Artist-Director, or whatever it's called?)

Yup, I was the previous art director before Kelpie

[checkers]

Quetzal's is bringing interesting compromises there.

(And are you the Quetzal who was previously mentionned to be an ex Artist-Director, or whatever it's called?)

Yup, I was the previous art director before Kelpie

How do you become an Art Dierector? (wants to)

[Kelpie]

kelpie, you keep posting how "phenomenal" and "awesome" Chimera is but I rarely, if at all, ever see you post about equal awesomeness the other artists are, like for Aqua, it's just 'Oh Aqua already has pets'. I feels ... sour to me. I wont go into details, but I don't like it.

Is Aqua under attack here? Last I checked she wasn't, but rest assured, if she were, I'd defend her just as wholeheartedly. Not to mention that I have known Chimaera a heck of a lot longer than I have known Aqua, and I have only just begun posting here this week. I'm sorry, but that statement really is out of line considering these things.

I appreciate all of our artists, and I'm sorry that Rah's chai isn't getting the proper attention it deserves here. I find it rather sour that you insinuate that Chimaera and I don't value each artist on staff.

A lack of sarcasm would have been nice, ie; your comments to spiritchan, your replies to users on the boards and profiles.

I know you guys are staff and your work hard, but the people you speak to work hard too. And not just that, we are your customers. We pay for your site, and while artists are important, your clients are more important.

A lack of sarcasm would be nice, but you have to understand our frustration. We're human too, and I'm willing to speak to you on a human level without sarcasm if we're owed the same courtesy. There have been occasions when we have not been given that courtesy. Yes, it is our job and you're absolutely right. We should have the patience to put up with more and be wholly decent all the time. My apologies. However, sometimes we reach a breaking point. We're human. If you allow us that downfall, we will try harder to remember that some of you are paying customers. Deal?

On topic: Rah will you be revamping the chibi chai? I think it needs it greatly. The chai needed a revamp much more than the dragon and now it looks very nice.

It's quite possible that the chibi chai may get some tweaks in shading, however I don't believe any of us have discussed this yet.

Why are you revamping pets that really don't need to be revamped anyway? If you really want to "update" art, can't you just add another layer of shading using photoshop? Subeta is known for having 547697896 layers in their images anyway...

Even though the dragon doesn't match the old, perhaps we can compromise and make it its own new species, with some tweaks here and there? It's still a very nice image and design, I'd hate to see it go...

Hi, Steen. No, we're not revamping pets that were drawn by ex-artists only on that principle. I believe we still have some of your pets on site, as well as several Lina pets and items. Now, Chimaera can correct me if I'm wrong, however, this revamp was started before I got back on staff, and it was actually asked for by the users. Granted, they may not have asked for a full design change, but neither did they ask for such on the torrent or donadak and those went over swell. I suppose we just assumed this would be the same. Again, we've recognized our errors here.

We've already toyed with the idea of a new species, and I really like the idea.

... For any Subetastaff who may lurk on the forum, how exactly is the item/pet design changing and evolving? I keep seeing excuses of "we're letting them go because their art isn't up to our standards," but what exactly ARE staff's standards?

I wish people would stop saying it was a standards issue. No one is saying that these artists who were fired CANNOT DRAW. If they could not draw, we never would have hired them in the first place. If anything they're being fired for lack of style meshing. One does not need to draw like the rest of Subeta to draw well, and nowhere have I insinuated otherwise. Secondly, the artists who were fired, with the exception of one, were all item artists. So, keeping them on staff would not have made the dragon revamp, or any other pet revamp any better. As for our official standards, I see no harm in posting them.

_____*64x64 pixels
_____*Black outer lineart
_____*Indexed color mode (256 colors)
_____*2-4 layers of shading max
_____*Colored auras okay
_____*Animation okay

I'm not sure that it does much for your question, as really, Subeta's style is something I've been trying to define for a while. Might as well try to define Neopets' style as well. How do you do it? You just look at it and see that it either matches or doesn't. It's a cheap answer, but I'm afraid I don't have the words to explain to you what our style is or why these artists did not fit it. I also feel that it's not anyone's business why exactly these artists were fired, as that is a personal matter. The artists fired is more than welcome to approach me with questions on this, should they want to, however out of consideration for them? I'd rather not go into detail with users just for the sake of indulging their curiosity.

[Quetzal]

I just worked for the title, I guess. I was an artist, one of the more productive ones, and also worked in content. The administration noticed, then made me an art director and eventually help manage the economy too. However, I was relieved of my position for a few months after hiatus. When I came back, I worked my tail off again and regained my spot.

However, at the end of 2005 it was asked/suggested that I should step down so I could focus on just producing art. I don't know what their (the admins) motive was behind this, but I left for a few reasons (which I think former Subeta artists would love to know):

1. I was weak. Even though I pushed for consistency, I found it very hard to critique the artists because I was so attached to them. They were my little ducklings, my babies, and I worried that putting them through stress would upset them... so I pretty much let them do whatever they want. XD I fought against a quota at first, but came up with a middle ground solution so they could balance life and Subeta. I always felt that if they were hired, they were hired for a reason so I rarely fired anyone unless it was for inactivity. (Actually there was one case of me firing someone due to skill, but I barely remember anything).

DID I MENTION THAT AN ARTIST MADE AN AWESOME SHARK-FISH PET? Too bad it never got released or at least, redrawn and rereleased, it was a great concept, I believe done by Maki.

2. I needed to "focus" and have my "stress" relieved by removing loads off my plate, thinking it was the right decision and would further benefit Subeta. I kept my AA position, but the title of Art Director was ultimately given to Kelpie, since her name was suggested by the admin.

3. College. College sucks your soul when you're in an intensive major. Whether I could have balanced it and Subeta as the years went by, I really don't know.

Eventually got pissed off, then walked out with an admin. Haven't returned since.

Despite what's going on, they're still doing a much better job (AD department) than I was doing...

So if you want to be an AD, think about it very carefully. If you have your heart set to it, just make yourself known amongst your peers. The artists will come to respect you, as will the admins. They'll take notice if they need a position like AD filled.

(Edited so many times due to an infinite amount of spelling errors)

[Kelpie]

Thank you for your support, Steen. It really means a lot.

And you're right! I think I remember that shark-fish thing. I think I nixed the idea when Maki was gone because I didn't think anyone could pick up where she left off. That'd be a fun counterpart to the Tutani though!

Hm, and reading what you've said here makes me think that perhaps we've just been too lenient on who we hire and when. Perhaps we'd have less firings going on if we were more rigid when deciding upon who to hire. It's worth giving some thought.

[Wingsrising]

A lack of sarcasm would be nice, but you have to understand our frustration. We're human too, and I'm willing to speak to you on a human level without sarcasm if we're owed the same courtesy. There have been occasions when we have not been given that courtesy. Yes, it is our job and you're absolutely right. We should have the patience to put up with more and be wholly decent all the time. My apologies. However, sometimes we reach a breaking point. We're human. If you allow us that downfall, we will try harder to remember that some of you are paying customers. Deal?

That's customer service for you. I've been in customer service positions myself, and I know it can be tough to be polite to people who are treating you like dirt, but the fact is part of the job is being bliged to speak to your customers on a human level without sarcasm regardless of whether you're shown the same courtesy.

I think that's one of the problems that Subeta needs to address, in fact: there seem to be a lot of people dealing with users who aren't doing so in a professional manner. It might be worth taking some time to address that.

[Kelpie]

A lack of sarcasm would be nice, but you have to understand our frustration. We're human too, and I'm willing to speak to you on a human level without sarcasm if we're owed the same courtesy. There have been occasions when we have not been given that courtesy. Yes, it is our job and you're absolutely right. We should have the patience to put up with more and be wholly decent all the time. My apologies. However, sometimes we reach a breaking point. We're human. If you allow us that downfall, we will try harder to remember that some of you are paying customers. Deal?

That's customer service for you. I've been in customer service positions myself, and I know it can be tough to be polite to people who are treating you like dirt, but the fact is part of the job is being bliged to speak to your customers on a human level without sarcasm regardless of whether you're shown the same courtesy.

I think that's one of the problems that Subeta needs to address, in fact: there seem to be a lot of people dealing with users who aren't doing so in a professional manner. It might be worth taking some time to address that.

I wholeheartedly agree. Having been guilty of this, I apologize yet again for my lack of professionalism during this whole ordeal. My point was not to excuse our sarcasm, but to keep in mind that we are human with feelings, much the same as you. Our job is not to be emotionless robots.

[Patrick]

A lack of sarcasm would be nice, but you have to understand our frustration. We're human too, and I'm willing to speak to you on a human level without sarcasm if we're owed the same courtesy. There have been occasions when we have not been given that courtesy. Yes, it is our job and you're absolutely right. We should have the patience to put up with more and be wholly decent all the time. My apologies. However, sometimes we reach a breaking point. We're human. If you allow us that downfall, we will try harder to remember that some of you are paying customers. Deal?

deal, and I apologize for being a bit of a horse's butt, but I've become a bit annoyed with a few staff antics over the past few months. Kelpie, you are quite paitent and I must give you respect for that.

[Kelpie]

A lack of sarcasm would be nice, but you have to understand our frustration. We're human too, and I'm willing to speak to you on a human level without sarcasm if we're owed the same courtesy. There have been occasions when we have not been given that courtesy. Yes, it is our job and you're absolutely right. We should have the patience to put up with more and be wholly decent all the time. My apologies. However, sometimes we reach a breaking point. We're human. If you allow us that downfall, we will try harder to remember that some of you are paying customers. Deal?

deal, and I apologize for being a bit of a horse's butt, but I've become a bit annoyed with a few staff antics over the past few months. Kelpie, you are quite paitent and I must give you respect for that.

Thank you. It does mean a lot to see that.

[Sarivonne]

Thank you. It does mean a lot to see that.

Please forgive me if this is too forward but I think you need this. *hugs Kelpie*

[Kelpie]

Thank you. It does mean a lot to see that.

Please forgive me if this is too forward but I think you need this. *hugs Kelpie*

Too forward? Never. I always love hugs. I don't like not getting along with users. Thank you!

[Sarivonne]

It's hard sometimes, I can imagine, to make every user happy Some people are hard to please.

[Elfwoman99]

I've been reading this thread, and avoiding saying anything because I don't actually play Subeta (being unable to register for some reason). So I have been afraid that the mods would be upset if I posted here. But I do follow the art of Subeta, and generally have rather liked it. So this is only my observation about the art itself, and not any attempt to speculate about what is going on on the site, since I can't access it and can't register anyway.... so please don't be mad at me.


It isn't so much the deleting body parts and adding other body parts that utterly changed the Dragon. Those things made it more of a generic dragon and less of the pet it was.

But the major change was something less tangible than bodily appendages. It was attitude. The old dragon was wise, serene, contemplative. The new one is combatative and fierce. This is a very fundamental change.

Perhaps 4 years ago, the dragon looked totally different, maybe there was even a version with wings long ago. But the users who have a dragon now, how many of them were around then? People choose a pet because they like how it LOOKS and they like its PERSONALITY. I doubt many people choose a pet simply for its name and the general concept implied in the name. People didn't choose Dragons because they wanted just any draconic pet, whatever it looked like. They chose the specific set of pixels that they saw on the screen. They chose, essentially, a product. And the artistic staff have now taken away that product and substituted a completely different one in its place.

Think if you owned a cute, adorable weiner dog puppy, whom you loved to death. You loved its soulful face and short, goofy little legs. You loved its personality. Then one day you come home from school, and your beloved dog is GONE. Your parents have gotten you a new dog, a collie. How would you feel? It isn't that there's anything wrong with collies, but that collie is not your dog that you loved and played with every day.

And again, it doesn't mean that you would be upset if your puppy changed and grew up into an adult weiner dog -- as long as it was still actually a weiner dog, and not a collie or husky.