Dragon Name Change and Capital Lettered Pet Names Thread

[Arviragus]

If the staff keep making changes to the site to make it as they want it to be, without seeking input from the vast majority of Subetans who AREN'T *gasp* staff, they may find that there's very few people left besides themselves on the site. If you want to make a web/pet/whatever site that's all inside jokes for you/your friends/whoever, that's your right. Don't pretend like the community is important though, because it's obviously not.

[Wingsrising]

Two points:

Why bother explaining though when the outcome is not any better than had we just kept quiet? That's my particular point. If our goal is to get users as excited about a change as we are by sharing our motives and logic, and it instead serves to incite people to further disgust and outrage, why should we continue to to masochistically spoon feed our reasoning to users?

Well, the idea is that if you make a changes that people don't like, but you have a good reason for it, it will tend to make people more willing to accept the change. (E.g. Changing the name of an item people really like may make users unhappy. Explaining that you changed it because the item was named after something copyrighted and you were afraid you were going to be sued will probably make people feel better about the change.)

But that depends on people agreeing your reason is a good reason. If you make a change that people don't like, and people think your reason is a bad reason, then no, that's not going to make people feel better about the change. (It may also be a sign that perhaps you should change things back.)

Oh, no no! It's not that listening to the users isn't worth the effort to me. And again, I know it's hard to accept, but I'm speaking from a personal standpoint, not on the behalf of all staff.

I don't want to sound like I'm picking on you here, because I'm really not, or at least not you specifically: there are quite a few other members of the Subeta staff that do the same thing.

As long as you work for Subeta (and are known to work for Subeta), are talking about Subeta, and are posting on forums about Subeta... you are NEVER "speaking from a personal standpoint." You're representing Subeta. Full stop. Things that you do and say don't just reflect on you, they reflect on both Keith and Subeta as a whole. If you do something that makes you look good, you make Keith and Subeta look good, too. If you do something that makes you look bad, you're not just making yourself look bad, you're making Keith and Subeta look bad. When you upset people, you're not just getting them upset at you... it's possible (likely, even) that you're costing Subeta money.

That's what happens when you work for someone. You're not just speaking for yourself anymore.

Like I said, I'm really not trying to pick on you personally here... it's a more general problem with Subeta as a whole and it's always been my biggest problem with Subeta. In the end I don't care that much about one silly name more or less. (God knows I've taken a lot of annoying changes from Neopets over the years.) It's the ongoing lack of professionalism that puts me off from spending more money on Subeta then I do, not random bits of sillyness like "rreign."

[Luxe]

Exactly my point, Ty. Had we not mentioned the Welsh inspiration, that would have been one less thing to complain about. It's something that I, personally, feel is irrelevant as to whether or not a person likes the new name. It doesn't bother me that people dislike the double R or find it pretentious, or that they dislike the name in general. But the "double Rs aren't Welsh!" argument is tiring, because now we have to explain that we weren't inspired to mimic the Welsh language exactly. We were inspired by their use of double consonants and sought to imitate that.

"Better" is such a relative term, though. Obviously, we wouldn't do it if we didn't believe the change was for the better already. We certainly don't like having something that we are proud of poked until it bleeds and leaks like a sieve.

Again, I feel that we're trying to compare apples to oranges. I'm not disputing the capitalization of Giant Panda or Blue Jay. I'm saying that the colors on Subeta are just adjectives and the species names are common nouns. If it were correct to say Black Dog or White Tiger, you might have me convinced. Who capitalizes tiger or lion or panther when they're more specific names for a cat? Does that make any sense?

[AngharadTy]

My point is that it wouldn't have been masochistic if it had been a more logical reason. That explaining things to your users is good, overall; having a bad reason doesn't mean that you should stop explaining things.

I mean "better" as in "better to a majority of the users." Because the staff is a minority. And not always right. Of course, it's hard to back down when you've already made a post saying, "the dragons have announced that they would henceforth prefer to be referred to as rreigns" because now it's canon, now it's IC. An OOC poll would have been vastly preferable. With more options than just "Dragon" and "rreign."

However, staff have very seldom changed things back just because plenty of users disliked it. The brief Saggi art update is one of the only examples I can think of, and I don't even know if that reversion was because players didn't like it or because staff didn't like it. This leaves me feeling, overall, that--in spite of the polls that we periodically get to answer--the preferences of the populace have little impact on the site. When there are sources of user input and a potential (and past, but not present) customer like myself still feels that they're worth jack to the site, that's a bad atmosphere.

And my final point about capitalization was in direct response to this, which was, I see, from you, Luxe--

Indeed. We don't go around talking about White Tigers or Black Rhinos in Abc case, do we?

Because we do. Perhaps not with 100% consistency. That's why they're common names and not more technical Latin names. Most people are not going to correct someone who says "black rhino," even if "Black Rhino" is just as (or more) correct. But you can't use that as a reason to change after years of capitalizing species' names. (edit: Just in case I'm not being very clear, I do understand your point--I don't care about the color being capitalized. I do care about the species being capitalized. But a Black Rhinoceros is a species. A black cat is not a species.) My personal preference is to say "graveyard Keeto" or "reborn Demi."

And, while I'm at it, "glacial Kumos," because "glacier" is a noun. So is "graveyard," admittedly, but the word "glacial" already exists, and there's no "graveyardial."

[lavender]

A name change for the Dragon was clearly overdue, but... rreign? Really? Really?!?! That's the best they they could come up with? REALLY?! When I say 'rreign' I sound like Tony the Tiger - it's stupid.

The lack of capitalization is irksome, also.

Why does the name continue to matter this much when the pet was already on everyone's Poop List?

Because now it's poopier!

[Sarivonne]

I know someone went on wikipedia and saw the whole Y Ddraig Goch thing, but to be honest, it =doesn't= work for Rreign. My bad. rreigns. RRrrrreigns? That also bugs me, there's two Rs, so it's a quick 'growl'? I don't feel like 'growling' to say a pet name. That's silly. "So josh, did you like the Rrrrreigns?' I feel like Tony the Tiger.

I have to agree that all these changes seem to be doing more good than harm. I don't see the need for the changes. Suddenly Subeta wants to be it's own world. Okay, I understand that. It's not earth. Pets can be based on other animals but not have the anatomy of that animal, I'm used to that too. There seems to be a lot of crazy explanations that don't really make much sense sometimes.

A name change for the Dragon was clearly overdue, but... rreign? Really? Really?!?! That's the best they they could come up with? REALLY?! When I say 'rreign' I sound like Tony the Tiger - it's stupid.

Wow, we had the same thought.

[Wingsrising]

We certainly don't like having something that we are proud of poked until it bleeds and leaks like a sieve.

I understand that. Really, I do. I think all of us do because all of us have been in that position at one time or another. (Just ask me how much I love peer reviews or teaching evaluations.)

But it comes with the territory. If you don't want your stuff poked at, don't put it out in public. If you don't want people to comment on what they think of the name, "rreign", write a fanfic you send to 10 friends where dragons are called rreigns. But don't publish it to a site with a thousand+ users, because if you do that, people are going to tell you what they think.

Being willing to consider their complaints and their reasons for it is how you improve.

I'm not disputing the capitalization of Giant Panda or Blue Jay. I'm saying that the colors on Subeta are just adjectives and the species names are common nouns. If it were correct to say Black Dog or White Tiger, you might have me convinced. Who capitalizes tiger or lion or panther when they're more specific names for a cat? Does that make any sense?

But that's the reason we're being given for the change... that capitalizing species names isn't correct. Our point is that capitalizing species names IS correct.

[Luxe]

Then perhaps I'm misusing the word "species". What is the word "cat" or "tiger" as compared to Koala or Golden Retriever? Our point is that the names of our pet varieties are common nouns, not proper. The names of our colors are no more special than gray or white. They're not proper titles. When do you cross the line from an adjective and a noun to something proper.

Again, I understand that it comes with the territory, and I'm open to the feedback. What I resent is the insinuation that if we didn't want this to happen, we'd make better changes for the site, as if this was all done on a personal whim and we don't give a crap what users think. If we didn't think it was better, why would we do it? We want the comments and for you to decide whether or not you like it. What we can do is temper that preference by how much "behind the scenes" information we provide to tilt the scales.

[Wingsrising]

The word "tiger" isn't capitalized because there are many species of tiger. (Bengal Tigers, Siberian Tigers, etc.) Similarly, "cat" refers to many, many species. (A Bengal Tiger, for example, is a cat.)

If there are many species of Lain or Dragon, then lain or dragon would be perfectly proper.

But up until now there's only been one species of Lain, Dragon, etc. on the site.

If the Twilight Lain and the Dusk Lain are different species then referring to them all as lain (or lains) would be proper, but then "Twilight Lain'" and "Dusk Lain" should be capitalized.

That's my understanding... when something because the name of a species, then it becomes a proper noun, not a common name.

[Sarivonne]

I have learned many things today, on subeta and neocolours. I cant say it's a bad thing.

[Cranberry]

I agree with Wings' and Ty's explanations. I'm just wondering... why did the staff decide to make pet names completely lowercase, anyway? And why are you so adamant about keeping them that way when it's pretty obvious that many users don't like it and your justification for why it's grammatically correct is actually wrong?

It just seems like a really weird thing to fight over, you know? I can understand a species name being important to staff; you guys invent and draw these creatures and you obviously feel strongly about them. You should get to name them whatever you want. But capitalization? If most users think the names look better capitalized, why bother arguing with your paying customers and upsetting them by trying to make them agree that lowercase is better? I don't think I've ever seen someone complain about the capitalized species names the entire time I've been at Subeta, so why the seemingly random and unnecessary change?

[Slugawoo]

As I really don't give a rat's ass about the Dragons anymore, I can't say I really care about the name change. But had a pet I actually cared about been changed into the "rreign" I'd be pissed. It looks horrible. And it sounds retarded when I try to pronounce it. As someone mentioned: I sound like Tony the Tiger everytime I say that pet's name.

At this point, I'm throughly convinced the staff(in general) has no talent when it comes to making up names. At all. Morostide, Alegarten(which, admittedly, isn't THAT bad, but still annoying to say), and Keelholiday are just further proof of this. But maybe they're just going through a rough patch right now, seeing as previous pet-name changes weren't bad at all. (Ontra, Chelon = Yes. Rreign... no. Just no.)

But like I said: Don't really care. I don't care about the Dragons. I'm just going to go bad to pretending they don't exist. They're nothing but a bad memory to me now.

However, I can say I'm not happy with this "no more capitailizing species names" crap. It looks unprofessional. It looks like, and forgive me, like n00bs are running the site. It makes the grammar nazi in me CRY. :|

[Joey]

If we didn't think it was better, why would we do it? We want the comments and for you to decide whether or not you like it.

There you go again with that we. Staff is deciding that they think it will be better, or what they think the users think would be better. It's not actual user input. And if you accept comments on whether the users like things better, why do things rarely change once they've been implemented despite the amount of complaints? And why exactly is it so hard to ASK FIRST? You've got polls for a reason.

[Jessi]

I'd also like to point out that I think it's terribly unfair that staff is going a little out of bounds by saying "Should we poll EVERYTHING? Plots, new battle challengers, etc?" I don't think anyone is saying that. Plots are meant to be a surprise, and obviously should NOT be polled.

However, Subeta has built a reputation over listening to its members, or at least trying to, which is why pet revamp polls are so wonderful. When you change the name of a pet, you can't expect everyone to accept it or like it, and in that case, I think a poll would be nice.

Likewise, I DO think if a poll had been put up saying "Do you want to continue seeing pets' species names capitalized throughout the site?", people most likely would have voted 'yes'.

It's just a silly change that a lot of people don't like... but instead of taking their opinions into account, staff is simply fighting back and basically saying "This is how it is." You can't claim you want to listen to user opinions and GET their opinions when all you're going to do is fight them on it, sometimes even insult them on it.

Subeta is not Neopets. It is not a huge company run on ads and corporate funding. The only way Subeta functions is with people donating from the cash shop. Small changes like this may be small to staff, but even if it stops just a HANDFUL of people wanting to spend money on the site, it should send up a little red flag. If Subeta WERE like Neopets, and did not have to rely on their users to fund the site - hey , change the names, don't ask for the user's input, and piss the user off as much as possible.

I'm glad Subeta is smaller, and not a huge corporation. I'm glad I can visit the site without 10 ads on every page. However, if they want me to spend my cash to help run the site, I would expect my opinion not only to be taken into consideration, but to be responded to POLITELY. I'm sure other users feel the same.

[Joey]

*grumbles about what a pain in the ass this newfangled topic splitting is* Split this off from the revamp thread since it deserves it's own and stuff :P